To scrutinise the report of the Portfolio Holder for Education and Property and to make observations / recommendations to the Cabinet for consideration.
Minutes:
Documents Considered:
· Report of the Portfolio Holder for Education and Property.
Issues Discussed:
· The furthest distance a child travels to Cradoc School currently is 6.3 miles, and if the proposal is accepted the furthest distance a child would travel (based on current children at the school) is just over 9 miles.
· One of the challenges received is why the authority cannot build a new school in the Cradoc area. If the authority was build a school there based on the population numbers for the area, it would be a recommendation for a two class school for around 50 pupils which is not economic and still be a small school in accordance with the Welsh Government definition.
· With regard to the proposal and the Penlan site, this would mean schools operating temporarily from existing sites, moving from three governing bodies to one and one leadership team. It then gives the opportunity to develop one school on the Penlan site (which is the same location as Brecon High School) and across the road from Ysgol y Bannau which is the Welsh Medium primary school in the area.
· The proposal creates some exciting opportunities in respect of transition from Year 5 and 6 to the High School.
· Mount Street is the only infant and junior schools left in the county.
· Temporarily operating from three sites would allow the school to manage admissions.
· In terms of the three sites, there would be one governing body and one headteacher with a broader leadership team. There is also a precedent in the county with the Welshpool Church in Wales school which is now in one building but did operate previously on three separate sites.
· In terms of transition this should provide better opportunities for transitional arrangements, such as greater ability for pupils in years 5 to 8 to have access to facilities at Brecon High School such as science laboratories, drama studio.
· Questions:
There has been a statement from the Portfolio Holder about the ideal size of a school in response to a question at any time. Can you confirm that we are looking as an aspiration to move to schools of 210 pupils as part of transformation. |
The Portfolio Holder indicated that this is not the case. The information provided was the ideal size of a school from the Portfolio Holder's perspective only. Looking at the funding formula this gives information as to how best to resource a school. A school with 210 pupils is an ideal scenario, but is not suitable for all cases. Therefore this is not relevant in terms of the strategy, what is important is to provide an equal opportunity for pupils across Powys.
This is a question which has been asked many times for a county the size of Powys. There could be an ideal size for a school in terms of the number of classes you would want, but the authority has to take account of a range of factors such as geography, location, language of the school, rather than a one size fits all. |
Thank you to officers for a comprehensive paper. P191 in pack relates to Estyn's comment regarding the Council's assertion that all standards will improve after the amalgamation of the three schools in phase one. Estyn has suggested that the Council's response was vague. On reflection do officers want to add anything to the response that there is an improvement to further assure parents. The response is point 2.1.0 in the consultation report |
In terms of the provision and improvement. What is being looked for is improved provision going forward. Part of what Estyn consider within provision is the learning environment which would be improved especially at Cradoc as there are accessibility issues so inclusion would be improved. There are also mitigations which the school currently has to put in place for safeguarding which would be improved in a better building. There would also be better provision for teaching and learning e.g. transition to better facilities such as access to science laboratories. This would improve the situation going forward especially in relation to issues currently at Cradoc. |
There is concern about the two phases. The concern is that with three sites this takes the headteacher away from the other two schools if there's an issue or additional support required at one of the schools. |
There was much concern about having two phases and why pupils could not just move into a new building. The response is that phase one is integral to the success of phase two. There would be a need to establish a new temporary governing body, staff and pupils who can work with Council in developing the designs of the new school building. In terms of concerns about managing a school across three sites there is previous experience of doing this in Welshpool. This was a challenge for the headteacher, leadership and governing body, plus it was anticipated that this would only be for a short timescale which was not the case. In terms of multiple sites there would be one headteacher but there will also be teachers in charge at the other sites so there will be sufficient leadership at all sites. At Welshpool there was a governing body and a headteacher and the staffing structure was put in place across the three sites. The three sites had a deputy and then developed other things such as the designs for the new school, and a single set of school uniform before moving into the new building. The authority did put support in place for the three sites in Welshpool to make sure they worked effectively and ran as smoothly as possible. |
This is reassuring. However, we still have covid and new ways of working, plus the new curriculum and changes to ALN so there are a range of demands on staff. The concern is that this could be disruptive for pupils. There is no determination of the funding for the school and timescale for this project. Is a PRU part of this funding as well or is that additional funding. |
The authority is aware of the demands on schools, but there are also opportunities for schools working together and supporting each other, or working in clusters. There is also a curriculum and professional learning team in Powys to support schools. The Council is in a good place in relation to ALN as has been highlighted from the recent Estyn inspection report. There is a team in place to support schools and in terms of transition and the transformation programme, an officer is in place to support headteachers through this process. Support will be ongoing as well. |
Different options were considered. Was there an option considered to merge the two Mount Street schools and the federate with Cradoc i.e. federated on two sites rather than three. Why is the analysis of the two sites option not included in the paper. There is no option to merge the two Mount Street schools and then with Cradoc. Why was this not considered as an option. |
There was an option to federate and merge the Mount Street schools and then a further option to federate or merge the three schools. Option 2A was to federate the two Mount Street schools and keep Cradoc as a separate school. There were also two further options which included a merger option. This would have to be two separate legal processes i.e. merging the two schools and then the federation as a separate process. Merging the three schools has far better opportunities and advantages than merging two and federating the third. The benefits of merging the three schools outweigh the other options. |
This process came out of the previous wider Brecon catchment review. Was this option referred to in the previous question considered earlier and discounted then. Understand the economic issue but parents are currently choosing to go to Cradoc rather than Priory school for whatever reason.
Recommendation to the Cabinet – include reference to the two school option in the paper to Cabinet and the reason why it was discounted. |
The option referred to, to retain Cradoc on the current site cannot be justified from an economic perspective as the Council would be looking at a two class school which would be fifty pupils based on the population in that area, which cannot be justified balanced against the proposal being put forward. |
With regard to transition phase one, I am aware of pupils who could have gone to new Welshpool school now going to more rural schools outside of the Welshpool area. Have we done a lessons learned exercise as to whether this was caused due to the transition being too long or was it the choice of parents to move to a medium sized school.
Are there any lessons to be learned from the Welshpool experience as to which school parents would sent pupils and are we confident that all pupils will transfer to the new school. |
The authority is in the process of finalising a lessons learned exercise to inform Welsh Government and is in the process of capturing this information. Welshpool school only opened in January 2021. It is believed that all pupils from the three schools did transfer to new building at transition but this needs to be confirmed. This is because one new school was established for a few years and staff did lot of work to encourage one school ethos across the three sites. Welshpool town schools were previously losing pupils to schools outside the area. Welshpool CIW school was built to a size anticipated to be adequate and retain pupils from the town in the school. This also acknowledges years of change and historical issues in Welshpool.
Recommendation that the information referred to be made available to Cabinet before they take the decision |
What confidence is there that the impact of this new school will not affect the viability of other primary schools in the town. |
The modelling around the proposal is based on the pupils in the area and making sure that there is sufficient places for the population. However the choice of school rests with parents, and the Council's role is to ensure sufficient places for the population based on demographics. |
Will scrutiny be able to see the lessons learned document. |
Yes, it is due to be completed in March and can be shared with scrutiny.
ACTION – Committee to consider document either before or following the election. |
Is the catchment information provided by the Head of Transformation and Communication based on the nearest school or new and old catchments. Will pupils from Cradoc cross the catchment of another school. Is there a danger of pupils from other schools wanting to attend the new school as well.
This opens up questions about the school transport policy. Priory would be the nearest school for some Cradoc pupils so would not be eligible for transport to the new school unless they are designated in the catchment of the new school. |
In terms of transport and town schools, where there are a number of schools parents choices are different to rural schools where there may be a choice of one school. Pupils in the current three sites would be expected to transfer into new building. The Council would ensure that transport is available to those pupils to the new site. Once the new school is in existence, the catchment area would be redefined for the new school and transport provided.
Parents in the rest of Brecon could apply to send their children to the new school as part of the normal admissions process. The authority would be mindful of that and make sure there are sufficient places for those pupils as well. |
Could you give assurance that transport would be available not only for pupils transferring from Cradoc but also for new pupils from that catchment rather than them having to attend Priory school. If so can the Cabinet report reflect that. |
Yes, the redefinition of the new school catchment would include the Cradoc area within the new catchment.
Recommendation that scrutiny is reassured about this issue. |
P196 of the pack. Staffing adjustments are to be made. There is a lack of clarity about those changes which is understandable. Looking at the finances and savings for phase one, it is indicated that this would be a saving of £16k p.a. Is this exclusive of, or inclusive of staffing adjustments. |
The £16k potential saving is purely down to the formula and running one school over three sites rather than running three separate schools. This removes some of the duplication and would cover funding of staffing and other elements within the formula. |
Would expect the adjustment for staff to be more than £16k i.e. one headteacher rather than three. |
The way the formula works currently, if a school operates over a split site, there is more generous funding than for individual schools on three sites. There is no direct correlation between losing two headteachers and the budget.
The funding from the authority is driven by the formula which is allocated differently when you combine all the pupils in the three schools and would generate an allocation different to the separate schools. It is then down to the Governing Body to determine its allocation and staffing levels to meet the needs of pupils. The authority does not cost the changes in terms of staffing levels as the cost for the authority is the formula only. The other changes will be accommodated by the school. There is a slight saving here in terms of the funding formula allocation. |
What is stated are the savings which will accrue in the transition phase based on the current formula. If the proposals going to Cabinet to revise the funding formula are approved what would be the likely savings based on the new model as you would expect to see that in the Cabinet report |
The proposal does state that if the new funding formula is approved then a recalculation of figures will be required. The changes to the formula will change some of the detailed figures but overall it should not make a significant difference.
Recommended that indicative figures based on the new formula if implemented is made available to the Cabinet. |
Early Years. In two of the existing schools 56 early years places are available and 19 places in Cradoc, although its not known how many places are taken up. In the new build there is no mention of early years provision. |
The new build will be a 360 pupil school with additional early years provision as well. The authority will be working with providers to determine the numbers of places needed. In all new school builds early years provision is included. |
Are all the early years places currently taken up and how many places will be needed in new school. |
The figures is not available at present but will be available for Cabinet |
With regard to the early years provision at Cradoc, the closure of the school and use for another purpose would remove the last community facility in the village and leave the playgroup without accommodation. What plans do we have to enable provision in Cradoc to address this issue. |
This is included in the Community Impact Assessment. The authority would work with community to seek an alternative to maintain a facility in the community. Have done this before with other schools and there is time to do this in the process, and opportunities to have those discussions. |
Can you give an assurance to the Cabinet that the proposal will not decrease the available number of early years places in the Brecon and Cradoc catchment areas. |
As a minimum the authority would look to provide the numbers of places as required currently in the new school build. A new tendering process is to be undertaken to allocate early years provision to providers. It is the authority's commitment that excellent early years are part of any new build.
Recommended that the Committee received assurance that the numbers of early years places will not be reduced in the Brecon and Cradoc area as a result of the proposals. |
There would be movement of staff between the sites on occasions. Has that been factored into the savings as this is over and above the school funding formula. |
Travel costs between sites is not factored in as staff are not expected to have large amount of travelling between sites, with only the headteacher moving around.
The saving for phase one is purely the formula savings, and the authority is not anticipating significant amounts of travelling between sites on a regular basis. |
The argument in the document for improved education is that we can use the expertise of staff for the whole school, which would mean them moving between sites. |
There is an expectation that staff come together sometimes to develop their professional learning, but there are also other ways of getting staff together and sharing learning.
In Welshpool the whole school sometimes wanted to get together as a school, and for staff training and professional learning. The authority would work with schools in supporting them in the transition period in whatever ways that were necessary. Much of the training for teachers currently is provided online, so these facilities are available to support schools. |
Risk around phase two such as new build, a location which has raised a number of issues in the consultation process. Can you expand more on the responses, and how do you intend to address those concerns.
Ysgol y Bannau is already on that site, but how many of their pupils use active travel measures to get to school from Brecon or are children being brought in cars to school. How successful has this school been in developing a forest school environment.
The active travel / safe route will be a challenge if the school is on the old High School site. There is a pathway but it is not well lit. The hospital is also on that route with narrow footpaths on the main road. There is also a housing development in the area with a roundabout and significant traffic movement. Of particular concern is that there has been no response from Mount Street Junior School Governing Body. |
A number of concerns have been expressed about the site such as the difficulty for young mothers, or grandparents to walk children to school due to the slope up to the site. Active travel routes and safe routes to school is something that would be considered as part of commissioning any new school. If the proposal is agreed then work will start on the feasibility of the site. The Council has an active travel officer and grants are available which the Council can access. There is a need to engage with the school and community at an early stage hence the importance of phase one, to understand the concerns and try to mitigate them.
Forest schools – Mount Street Infants School has a mature forest school. In all primary schools builds outdoor learning is as important as indoor learning so the authority would look to make sure that an outdoor space suitable is for pupils' learning and well being. There are various ways to develop forest school environments, and this is something that would be considered with the school community during phase one.
The data on Ysgol y Bannau can be made available for the Cabinet. The school does have pupils from a wider catchment than Brecon.
The issues raised will be taken into account when the feasibility work is undertaken, and a traffic assessment and safe route to school assessment will be undertaken. Meetings were held with Mount Street Junior School and those minutes are included but there was no direct response from the governing body to the consultation.
In relation to forest school, outdoor learning is part of the foundation phase and the new curriculum. Forest school teaching and learning is an important part and needs a high level of training for forest school practitioners. Forest school is part of future planning to make sure that the outdoor environment is fit for purpose. |
With the configuration and condition issues especially at Cradoc this looks like an exciting project if phase two is delivered. The broader concern is about the delivery of the project. The least best option is phase one, which will disrupt pupils and save only £16k.
If we get 65% Welsh Government funding, savings of £200k per annum are anticipated, but there are additional borrowing costs of £175k so that only leaves a £25k saving and a new building. As this is not currently funded if the Council decided it cannot complete this we are stuck with phase one. Is there a perceived risk in this respect or that we will not gain the funding. |
Learner entitlement is more important in approaching transformation than money although funding is important. The authority is not envisioning a significant disruption for pupils, as the change in phase one is more about governance. Phase two should be exciting for the pupils with the opportunity it brings.
In terms of funding we have 21st Century funding already and slippage in the band B programme. Within the band B programme Welsh Government is expecting us to spend 80% of the funding before we ask for additional funding. Therefore, we are not asking for new funding but what we want is to allocate this funding to this project. There is a small risk to this. Until this is confirmed it is still identified as a risk, but this is standard for any school proposal.
Until you get to the full business case and this is approved there is always a question about funding. The worst case scenario is that we do not get any Welsh Government funding which would mean the Council needing to fund this project itself which would mean borrowing more money, selling more assets or some of both. Welsh Government has also announced net zero builds but there is an additional 10% funding available in respect of this. The risk is therefore minimal. If you maintain the status quo there are a backlog of maintenance costs but this would not bring the buildings up to what is required for the future.
The project depends on whether we get Welsh Government approval to use band B funding and the risk of not gaining this approval is low. In terms of the funding with an intervention rate of 65% the Council would be looking for £3.5m to support the project and if we were to use borrowing only it would mean a revenue cost of £175k per annum which is built into the capital programme. If we did not get funding approval from Welsh Government and we have to fund 100% of the cost that would be a £500k revenue cost per annum if the cost came from borrowing. The Council is looking at developing a different funding strategy for capital schemes as well as the potential use of capital receipts to reduce the cost of borrowing. The Section 151 Officer indicated that she was comfortable that this project is affordable within the current capital programme. |
With the slippage in band B, have projects been delayed. |
This is unallocated funding rather than slippage. |
This is part of the wider Brecon plan which included Sennybridge. Is the funding for the new build at Sennybridge considered within band B funding.
Need to make sure that the whole of the Brecon catchment review is included as part of the MTFS for the future. |
The costs for Sennybridge are not part of this report and do not feature in terms of the costings in the report.
In terms of the programme the authority is looking to get most value from the schemes going forward and the band B funding but this is currently being worked on in terms of feasibility but we will keep within the envelope of Band B.
The PRU and leisure also not included in today's proposal, only the education element. |
Will any immediate maintenance of current buildings be undertaken if it is going to take a few years to build the new school. |
The authority will continue to maintain and repair the current buildings until pupils move into the new building. |
The existing schools have had help and support from the community, and they will have received money come from outside the education pot. The concern is that any savings from closing a school will go back into the corporate budget. Surely, savings should go back to education. |
This issue was raised by the Schools Forum who felt that any savings from transformation should be reinvested in the schools service. The Council should not commit to that as planning timetables are tight and we only know what we get from Welsh Government on an annual basis. The Council has to look at all its budgets as it plans for the following year. This may change with three year settlements which is what the Council is expecting this year. In planning budgets the Council is clear about the costs of delivering its services. Where there are costs and pressures in the schools delegated budget these are recognised in Council planning and considered as part of the budget planning process. By not making the commitment to reinvest savings does not put schools at a disadvantage. The way that the Council has planned over previous years has seen more investment go into schools than has been saved through the transformation project. The Council needs to review its whole budget corporately and make sure resources are used in the most appropriate way. |
Just want to understand where the Sennybridge proposal sits in relation to these changes and is it in relation to the Welsh language provision as there is additional Welsh Language provision in the Sennybridge proposal. Is there a co-dependency between this proposal and the Sennybridge proposal or are they completely separate. Could you explain the relationship. |
The proposals for Brecon and Sennybridge started together as one business case for the Brecon catchment. The work on the feasibility of the Sennybridge proposal has already started with the Brecon proposal being subject to consultation. Neither proposal are dependent on each other. The Brecon proposal if agreed will "catch-up" with the Sennybridge proposal and what the authority is seeking is to get the best value in the marketplace with both schemes as a single procurement package.
In relation to Welsh Language the proposal in Sennybridge is for a dual stream school. |
In relation to making the project bigger if this can be achieved, the authority's track record with large projects is not great. We need to look at lessons learned before we look at another large, complex combined project across two sites. |
The Portfolio Holder advised that the transformation team has delivered large projects previously such as in Brecon and Gwernyfed. The experience in Welshpool with Dawnus was outside of the Council's control. A combined procurement will provide benefits to the Council but the authority is also aware of previous issues and the risks involved. |
Whilst we see costings for new buildings, would like to see equally strong costings in reports for maintaining the status quo as although a new build may be expensive, maintaining the status quo could be more expensive and not so good for learners in the long term. |
There is information in the document about the backlog of repairs and maintenance costs for the existing schools. The Transformation team is working with Finance to identify the status quo costs of existing buildings by comparison to the transformation costs. Once completed, this work can be considered by the Finance Panel. However, if the funding formula is amended there will be a need to recalculate the figures. |
The report suggests that there is no additional transport costs. Are we assuming that the existing High School provision will be sufficient to cater for additional primary school children from Cradoc. There may also be concerns about primary school pupils travelling with high school pupils. |
The existing High School site and the proposed new site are in the same location, so whilst there might be a need to increase the size of buses there will not be a need for additional buses as there is existing capacity. There are primary school pupils already travelling with high school pupils so there is experience of this in the catchment. |
What is Plan B if planning falls or there are issues on the Penlan site, which mean we were unable to use it.
Would like to see more assurance on phase two although the risk is low and there is a degree of assurance. |
Working with the Brecon Beacons National Park the categorisation of the Penlan site has been kept the same, so we would be able to build a school on that site as it is the site of the previous High School. The risk is minimal as the category has been kept the same. If there was an issue the authority would look for another site.
With the former High School having been on the site, and the new high school, the leisure centre and the college located there as well, this could be an exciting campus. If there were issues the authority could not address then it would have to look at another site. The authority is confident as it has been working with planners from an early stage as well as having expert planners on the consultancy team.
The authority is really confident that we can build a school on the Penlan site and have worked with the Brecon Beacons National Park and the Council's planners so have mitigated the risk as far as we can at present and do not feel there's more to do. |
· Comments:
· Are we confident that figures for the Cradoc catchment are correct?
· Taking funding from band B there is more assurance around the funding for phase 2. Also, more assured in relation to the financial affordability for the Council which is already factored into the financial planning of the Council. However, this is still a risk which scrutiny is concerned about and Cabinet needs to consider. There has been an assurance but it cannot be guaranteed at present.
· The responses from officers to comments from the public in the consultation were much more considered which was commended by the Committee.
· The case as long as get to phase 2 has been made in this instance by officers.
· There are some issues around the community particularly the impact on the early years provision and the loss of the childcare offer and wrap around care in Cradoc and loss of the school hall. The Committee would encourage support from the Economic Development Service and possible transfer of site to another department and regeneration of the site which might incorporate a village hall type facility.
Outcomes:
Scrutiny made the following observations:
· The Committee commented that an option to merge the two Mount Street schools and then federate with Cradoc School had been considered as part of the wider catchment review of Brecon and then discounted. It was suggested that an explanation of this option and why it had been discounted should be included in the paper to Cabinet.
· The Committee noted that a lessons learned review exercise was being finalised in relation to the Welshpool Schools where three schools merged into one. It was suggested that any available information from this review should be provided as background information to the Cabinet.
· The Committee requested that:
· the Welshpool schools lessons learned review paper once completed be submitted to the scrutiny committee for consideration.
· the Cabinet be provided with indicative savings figures for the proposal based on the draft revised school funding formula.
· The Committee was assured by the commitment:
· that once the pupils moved to the new school, the school catchment would be redefined to include the current Mount Street and Cradoc catchment areas for the purposes of the provision of school transport, rather than new pupils from the Cradoc area being required to attend Priory Street School as the nearest school.
· that the numbers of early years places would not be reduced in the Brecon and Cradoc areas.
· The Committee was also assured:
· that the authority would work with the local community in Cradoc to seek to retain facilities such as the playgroup.
· that the Authority was confident that it could build a new school on the Penlan site and that it had mitigated the risks as far as it could at this stage of the project.
· that as the Authority was intending to seek permission to use Band B funding for the proposal there was greater assurance around the financial viability of the project and also as it was also factored into the financial planning of the Council, although some risks continued to exist.
· The Committee acknowledged:
· that this could be an exciting project, and that the school was only part of the development of the overall campus.
· that the case for the proposal had been made as long as it progressed to Phase 2.
· The Committee commended officers for their considered responses to consultation comments from the public.
Scrutiny’sRecommendations to Cabinet:
1 that an explanation of the option to merge the two Mount Street Schools and federate with Cradoc School and why it had been discounted be included in the paper to Cabinet
2 that the Welshpool schools lessons learned review paper once completed be submitted to the scrutiny committee for consideration
3 that the Cabinet be provided with indicative savings figures for the proposal based on the draft revised school funding formula
4 that the Cabinet encourage the involvement of the economic development service to mitigate the impact of the proposal on the Cradoc Community especially in relation to the loss of a facility for early years provision, childcare offer and wrap around care.
Supporting documents: